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...the Giant Undertow... Compiled by Preston Nichols (pnichols@alleg.edu)
In the Summer of 1995, the Neil's brand new I'm the Ocean was on the collective Rust-mind. Asif in a giant undertow, Rusties were sucked into a discussion of it...
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 95 20:20:28 -0800 From: "Jason A. Schwartz" <schwartz@euclid.uoregon.edu> Subject: I'm the Ocean Anybody have a good make on I'm the Ocean? While it happens that I'm losing my mind these days, so my opinions are not to be valued, I've come up with a very bizarre interpretation of I'm the Ocean that almost makes sense to me. The album starts off with Song X and Act of Love, two songs which Neil himself says deal with abortion/choice/etc. Then I'm the Ocean comes, and at first it seemed to me to be a very random song. But one day I played it REALLY LOUD (with headphones!) and thought about the words in a different context to see how far I could take things. THOSE UNDER 18, READ NO FURTHER! I believe the song may be about (how can I put this so the censors won't put me in prison?)...ah! 'conception.' I think it was the ATN interview where Neil talked about how the mothers were faced with this big problem of how to deal with their pregnancies, while the dads got off easy (no pun intended). I see the first lines of this song suggesting the beginning of an unwanted pregnancy (the fact that it is described from the point of view of a _____ may be Neil's most bizarre twist yet!) "I'm an accident. I was driving way to fast. Couldn't stop though. So I let the moment last" The next few lines confuse things a little but could be the single _____ comparing himself to the other 20,000,000 who didn't make it tho whole way. Meanwhile, the _____ meets up with the egg. "People my age, they don't do the things I do. They go somewhere, while I run away with you. I've got my friends, and I've got my children too [in nine months, anyway]. I got her love. She's got my love too." "I can't hear you, but I feel the things you say. I can't see you, but I see what's in my way. Now I'm floating, 'cause I'm not tied to the ground. Words I've spoken seem to leave a hollow sound." Then Neil brings in the riders and chieftans along with some abortion imagery: "Who will love them, when they take another life" "Who will hold them, when they tremble from the knife" Then Neil makes his token salute to Lookout Mama, and seems to come back to "real life" for a while. From here, connections to the microscopic world of before are tenuous at best, although there are the screaming sirens (some believe the fetus lets out a silent scream upon being aborted), the random violence (abortion clinic bombings? OJ?) and the "testiomony of expert witnesses on the brutal crimes of love". The brutal crimes could include conceiving an unwanted child, deserting the mother, or having the fetus aborted. Now the rider returns, and its the end for our brave hero: "Started dreaming, saw the rider once again. In the doorway where she stood and watched for him...watched for him" "I'm not present" and before you know it, "I'm the ocean; I'm the giant undertow" What's the deal here? You got me...I suppose the ocean is where you'd find all the seamen (as in mariners!! no need to summon Ms. Manners) who never completed their journeys. So why not? Okay, so I took Neil's best song on the album and filled it with sick twisted disgusting images and you'll never enjoy it again! Oops. Well, like I said don't take me too seriously and keep in mind it's just MY interpretation. By the way, I'm curious to hear elaboration from those who say Throw Your Hatred Down is the worst on the album. I think it ROCKS!! As we all know all great truths are best expressed through either mathematics (hi, Preston) or Rock n Roll! Here is Neil choosing the latter (lucky for us!). I'd be surprised if anyone's read this far, so I bet nobody will notice if I sign my name as the former president of the United States of America, Abraham Lincoln
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 17:00:01 -0400 From: CharleneKi@aol.com Subject: Re: I'm the Ocean Abraham Lincoln, I mean Jason, wrote the following interpretation of "I'm the Ocean:" >I believe the song may be about (how can I put this so the censors won't >put me in prison?)...ah! 'conception.' I think it was the ATN interview where >Neil talked about how the mothers were faced with this big problem of how to >deal with their pregnancies, while the dads got off easy (no pun intended). >I see the first lines of this song suggesting the beginning of an unwanted >pregnancy (the fact that it is described from the point of view of a _____ >may be Neil's most bizarre twist yet!) >"I'm an accident. I was driving way to fast. Couldn't stop though. So >I let the moment last" We-e-e-l-l-ll !. JASON, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT!!! In this connection, I was most interested hearing Neil describe on the radio interview with Dave Marsh, how he took part with Pearl Jam in "that concert for choice, that pro-choice concert" or whatever, in January. He sounded sort of conflicted about it (like who wouldn't be, if one is able to maintain any kind of open mind), so I tuned into the fact, as he told ATN, that both "Act of Love" and "Song X" are about abortion themes. Neither of those songs is in any stretch of the imagination a political polemic on either side of this dire issue. But "I'm the Ocean" offers the deepest well of imagery and story-telling yet, to express whatever (as Neil said) was going on in the lives of him and people around him (notably the Pearl Jam entourage) during the time when he wrote this. He repeatedly stated that the whole album reflected whatever it was that he was thinking about at that time. I think that abortion and anti-abortion killings and such things that might be called collectively, "brutal crimes of love," are high on the list of ideas that are given expression in this album. Of course, we have to bear in mind that any "issue" subjected to Neil's creative centrifugal forces is bound to come out strangely related to a whole lot of other things than it ever has before. I am going to listen to this again with your idea in mind. I find it a very exciting idea. Also, bear in mind that anything "oceanic," in Jungian archetypal terms, probably ought to have to do with either conception or death. Duh!. ***********Welfare Mother*************
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 12:15:01 EDT From: Wolfgang Deimel <wolfgang@mvkjp2.kjp.uni-marburg.de> Subject: Ocean Welfare Mother said: > Also, bear in mind that anything "oceanic," in Jungian archetypal terms, > probably ought to have to do with either conception or death. Duh!. Nice to meet someone who appreciates Jung on this list - Young & Jung, that looks like a fine combination ... ;-) This interpretation in terms of death and life is surely correct, but I had another more common psychological interpretation in mind: most psychologists would tell you that dreams of water stand for the fear to lose control over your conscious decisions. Water stands for the archaic drives, the evolutionary heritage that are beyond consciousness. Wolfgang.
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 09:15:39 -0800 From: schwartz@euclid.uoregon.edu (Jason Auguste Schwartz) Subject: Re: I'm the Ocean Welfare Mom, Anne, and others: Interesting to hear about this Jung stuff. His name's come up a lot in conjunction with Neil's songs. I wonder if someone could recommend the easiest possible book or article I could read to learn more about his ideas. I'm not well-read in either Psychology or Philosophy, so nothing too heavy please! Thanks in advance, Jason "I'm not smart, but I can lift heavy things." - somebody's shirt
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:32:03 -0600 (MDT) From: Peter Alexand Nowakoski <panda@selway.umt.edu> Subject: Re: I'm the Ocean Folks, I don't usually chime in on discussions of Neil's lyrics, partly because I am a lurker and partly because I am pursuing a PhD in Literature and linguistics, so I do that kind of thing waaaay too much, but since "I'm the Ocean" is my early fave, I've been following the discussion. I think all those with the conception theme are on to something, especially when seen as a part of a suite with "song x" and "Act of Love." But I also think there's other stuff going on... like an entry into some of the other themes on the album. To whit, i think that there's a Postmodern thing going on, a sense of what William Gibson calls "extrageographicality," which describes this conversation we are having here. The references to not being present, to the ships away from the old city, to the dream and even to the "never-land" references of the lost boys as Braves. An extende comment on contemporary society? The rider and braves ref's move into Big Green Country, Downtown picks up on a romanticized image of the sixties, what happened yesterday on the locality of history in a media driven culture, Peace and Love? (well, eddie vedder finishes that one, so maybe its not so seemless), Throw Your Hatred down talks about "the conscious world", screamin' TVs, and theories, and scenery with its talk of Media slaves and heroes. I can't decide whether Neil is embracing the new world, rejecting it, or doing a little of both, but I am pretty sure the whole thing weaves in and out of romanticism, myth, and a little gritty reality and I like it. Pete
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 06:31:40 -0700 From: goldrush@ix.netcom.com (steve ganis) Subject: MIRROR BALL For those of us who remember mirror balls, Jimi playing in the back room and Led Zeppelin on stage, here's a review of the album which is kinda cool, by a guy who...well, I'll reveal the name after the short review: "It is 1965. The Rolling Stones have just completed "Satisfaction" and "Get Off of My Cloud" and, running into Chuck Berry, they decide to make a record together. Chuck finds this an inspiration and writes a batch of songs that touch upon every social and spiritual theme his hits have ever alluded to. The Stones respond with music that simply smokes these topics into a rock 'n roll revelation. Think you'd still be listening to that one today? Well, this collaboration with Pearl Jam, on a set that evokes acid rock as much as Young's usual folk and blues, is that mythical album's modern, real life equivalent." The author is Dave Marsh. As for these comparisons between RG and MB, CH and PJ, my two cents is that MB is a revelation. And from what I've read about the concert at Golden Gate Park a couple of weeks ago, it might have been the greatest Neil concert ever. I'm listening to my son's Pearl Jam CDs and finally "getting" it. It's the angst and the anger, circa the Stones 1965, but it doesn't have the r&b music base, which used to throw me off... I find that MB is an assault which I welcome every day; it probably would be selling PJ numbers had there been an Eddie Vedder track or two. I find also that the following recent comments made by Pancho Sampedro regarding the differences between RG and MB to resonate with me. Sez Pancho: "With the new album you have to wonder 'Could Crazy Horse have done that? I thought about it, and decided that the music that's coming out now is angry. Crazy Horse doesn't have that. I don't even think Neil has that." "People my age, they don't do the things I do"
Date: 3 Aug 1995 12:03:17 -0400 From: "Kim Mutcher" <Kim_Mutcher@gatormail.dciem.dnd.ca> Subject: Re: MB songs & WHY? Bush League Batter, I enjoyed your post on the mysterious MB songs and the acronyms contained within the song titles. WesMan and I were chatting about our favorite MB cuts a couple weeks ago and I thought you (and perhaps a few others on Rust) might be interested in my comments/analysis of the meaning behind the words: Favorite cuts on Mirror Ball and Why? Firstly, the overall feeling I get from this album is that Neil is trying to let his audience, which is growing larger as we speak, to get to know him better. He's allowing us a peek inside his fragmented psyche. A lot of the lyrics describe what he is about. What he thinks, feels, his behaviours, his moods, his opinions, his perceptions, his fantasies... DISCLAIMER: Since I don't know a lot about the process making music, my opinion is mostly derived from the actual lyrics. No. 3 Pick: I'm The Ocean--I like this one enormously. I like the water metaphor. I'm an Ocean. I am immense, dynamic, deep, filled with life, my music touches all continents, I'm filled with life, I'm unpredictable, powerful. Able to transform a stadium full of people into one gigantic ocean of waving bodies. That would be so cool! He also seems to say I make mistakes, so when people piss you off, don't get so uptight because it could just as easily be me up there blocking the traffic. We see fragments of a story about 'a rider in the night' lifted from this track that seem to match up perfectly with 'the lone grey rider' in Big Green Country. You'll notice even the font matches between the two songs (it's a little finer). To me this song reflects the state of life today and how Neil copes with it. He goes home and escapes by dreaming. "I'll always be a dreaming man, that's what I am." No. 2 Pick: Truth Be Known--When I listened to the album the second time, I realized this track had already grown on me. I remembered the words, the tune, I could chant along with Neil. It's pure, dark, honest, sad, it's Neil. Like you said 'it's loose'. When they sing the words 'back street town' I can hear the word 'town' sung three different ways. It just adds to the song somehow. Makes it even more special. My No. 1 Pick: Scenery--What's it like to stand up there on the stage? To be Neil Young? Just really listen to these lyrics and you'll know. Think of us, the adoring public, as the scenery. This is the last full-length song on the album. He parting shots at fame, fortune, and it's products of greed and lust. "When you earn their trust then you are truly in danger" To be so influential has it's downfalls. "Where greed and lust have never been a stranger". He's treading dangerous ground. Message for the fools in Hollywood: "Media image slaves live by random selection" It's sad, although he's worshipped, "who will you love in a world of constant strangers". "I'll go with you if you want to take a hero home" all you have to do is buy some of my music. There's a blazing solo by Neil to boot. This cut leads into... Fallen Angel--A touching prayer to finish off the album. Bye Neil, see you next time... Downtown--Hey "it's funky". This one has a real catchy guitar riff, no wonder it's getting the most airplay. Throw Your Hatred Down--Let's ship this to Bosnia and hope it makes sense to the killers over there. Peace & Love--Hey, what's not to like. Good guitar work. I think this is the one with a heavy bass line, the music is reminiscent of Crazy Horse. What Happened Yesterday--Kurt now exists through our memories of him. All in all, MB is a wonderful addition to Neil's sonic library. >>Unknown Legend<<
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 95 10:25:05 -0800 From: schwartz@euclid.uoregon.edu (Jason Auguste Schwartz) Subject: Re: MB songs & WHY? Unknown Legend, Thanks for your Mirror Ball ideas. As you know, I receive a tremendous volume of written feedback daily on Neil Young's Mirror Ball album. Under the circumstances, I can only reasonably handle a small portion of it. With this in mind, I am returning your Mirror Ball song notes unread. You may wish to resend them at a future date. Kidding as usual (of course!). Just doing my best Rolling Stone impression. Seriously, I enjoyed reading what you and the WesMan have come up with. He seems to be missing from rust these days, so it's good to know he's still rusting away. We differ a bit in which songs we like the best (for me it's 1-I'm the Ocean 2-Throw Your Hatred Down 3-Fallen Angel 4-Peace and Love), but that's natural I suppose. I agree with what you say about Neil revealing a lot of himself on this album. In some sense I think he does this on almost all his albums, only here it is more apparent. Trans, for instance, I believe is a deeply personal album. The Shocking Pinks?? Well, I don't know. For me, the most revealing and moving song is Fallen Angel. Obviously everyone will understand it slightly differently, but I see it like a prayer. Religion, faith, and sin tend to be topics of little interest to Neil (and myself!!) usually, but on MB we get quite a bit. Here, I see the lines "Where's the Big Drum? Where's the feel of body heat?" as questioning the existence or fitness of God. I know others have indicated the big drum is a heart, but I see the Big Drum as the entity that keeps the universe in synch. (Of course Neil has always marched to the beat of his own drum!) Nonetheless, I think he is saying, "Isn't anybody up there anymore? Doesn't anybody still care about us?" almost like God has abandoned ship. In that respect, I see the Fallen Angel not only as Kurt Cobain, but as God. You don't have to be religious to appreciate the significance of such a thing! There's of course a strong chance that I'm Too Far Gone on this one, but again, that's not unusual! Jason Bush League Batter
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 19:08:01 +0000 From: Anne.C.Henriksen@hint.no Subject: Re: Is Consensus Irrelevant?/or: SWA/MB Thank you for the SWA review. Just as Paul, Mirror Ball has also led me to look again at its preceeding album. Rust consensus on any albums is happily irrelevant -- one of the reasons I love Rust. To me SWA did not quite reach the point of artistic inner core that lifts an album into the chosen-few-group. I feel Mirror Ball has these qualities. In music SWA has always seemed a bit confusing to me. The book end songs are extremes in this way: so almost-beautiful but also so chaotic. Songs not quite able to decide what they want to be. Musically some tracks (ex.: Prime Of Life) sparked only some interest. It is an album of many contrasts. Now, when hearing Mirror Ball I feel I grasp more a new sound Neil Young is creating. Dimensions emerge, setting you in a different mode. I feel SWA also benefits from this, and lately it has grown on me. Yes, also to me SWA as a whole is an album of darkness. Each song reflects new aspects - only one is an elegy to Cobain's death. As a whole, themes of dissolution, disillusion and crisis seem to vibrate through the cellar rooms of the songs on this album. The very first song goes head on in portraying mid life crisis. Describing profound disillusionment and values demanding basic re-evaluation. In its final song the album ends grasping for hope -- to find ways of being that may include more than invinsibility. To me, the songs between seem to express confrontations of life when a person has encountered meeting his own skeleton in his cupboard. The songs convey paradoxes we often catch merely glimses of within us. Even 'Train Of Love' can be seen as more than a love song, battling with paradoxes of our souls. SWA met me like an earthquake - excruciately tearing down the pylons on which truths have been built. Leaving a darkness and invinsibleness. And in its final song it showed the paths that can give strength enough to break through. Thematically one can see Mirror Ball as a "next-stage-album" after SWA. It confronts some of the same themes: of life/death -- of hope prevailing despondancy. Of kindling a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being. These themes seem now to be met more in retrospective. They exceed SWA in profoundness; reaching into depths even beyond pain. Mirror Ball leads on in the same quest as 'A Dream That Can Last'. Though, the answers given are few and naked -- but strong enough to give base to pylons. It expresses hope; searching for, sorting out essencial values on which firmer foundations can be built. More than SWA, to me Mirror Ball is about a lasting power that cannot be denied. Both these albums are rich in their symbolism, often using classic Jungian archetypal expression. Consensus? No, I wouldn't think so. Most of Neil Young's albums can been seen in so foundamentally different ways that consensus does seems most unlikely. That is one reason that Rust stays so alive. With so many different individuals, our list can function like a deep well of very different and exiting perceptions. take care, Anne --------- * ---------- Lady of the North Star ='==='==='==='==='==='==='==='==='==='==='==='==='==='==='==='= As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being -C.G.Jung =.===.===.===.===.===.===.===.===.===.===.===.===.===.===.===.=
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 95 11:13:27 +0200 From: covey@lts.sel.alcatel.de Subject: I'm The Ocean Does anyone else see the similarities between the Kinks "Give The People What They Want" (Hey Mom! There goes a piece of the President's Brain!) and ITO (Need Distraction Need Romance and Candlelight Need Random Violence)? They both seem to be about just how dependent modern society is on the Idiot Box (me too I hasten to admit). To me their message seems to be hey there's more to life than this crap - a kind of crie de coeur for, I dunno, some sensibilitaet... I think the giant undertow refers to the unseen but ever present sublimination (I think!) of our consciousness by whatever we see on TV - we are all affected by what we see and brutalised by the never ending reports of violence and - of course - the potentially corrupting influence of what we watch. And if you believe that as a thinking, rational adult you DON'T get affected by what you watch just stop and think for a moment about how little you're affected now by events which twenty years ago you would have found abhorrent. I'm a great fan of TV but there's no doubt that sometimes it's the giant undertow -"the drug that makes you dream"... Just my 2 pfennigs on a Saturday morning... Uncle Dave ============================================================ "Kazakhstan - one of the new Soviet|covey@lts.sel.alcatel.de Republics of course..." | David Covey (Eurosport commentary at | aka Athletics World Cup 95) | Uncle Dave ============================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 21:45:27 -0400 From: CharleneKi@aol.com Subject: Re: I'm The Ocean In a message dated 95-08-19 05:19:39 EDT, covey@lts.sel.alcatel.de (Uncle Dave) writes: > I think the giant undertow refers to the unseen but ever present >sublimination (I think!) of our consciousness by whatever we see on TV - >we are all affected by what we see and brutalised by the never >ending reports of violence and - of course - the potentially corrupting >influence of what we watch I respond: Nah. I still think the undertow refers to death, abortion and suicide. I COULD be wrong. But that's not likely, now is it? ************Welfare Mother****************
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:59:27 -0400 From: MEKucz@aol.com Subject: Thought's on the Ocean Rusties: In the Spin interview, Neil describes ITO as a mish-mosh of images torn from current society, written in a real stream of consciousness way, done very quickly in a hotel room between PJ sessions. Other people have made a lot of different, perfectly valid interpretations of the song on the list. That's the great thing about Neil, what makes him a great artist, is that his lyrics have different meanings depending on your point of view. That's why I refused to write songs for seven years. As Loudon Wainwright III said of Bob Dylan "It was too damned daunting, you were too great." For what it's worth, I think that "I'm the ocean, I'm the giant undertow," is a reference to Neil's place in the landscape of rock-n-roll. Perhaps a bit tongue-in-cheek, but still a valid observation that he's the only 60s-era rocker to produce music these days that's vital and important. All these kids our there are playing the stuff he really gave life to twenty years ago with TTN, and the second side of Rust Never Sleeps. And we know Neil has a tendency to downplay this normally, maybe he's just been reading the critics while smelling the perfume in Rolling Stone. ;-) A friend and I hashed this out last night, and I think it makes some sense. The lyric, "I'm an accident, I was driving way too fast, couldn't stop though, so I let the moment last..." could easily be a reference to Neil's forays into various different musical genres, i.e., country, technopop, blues, rockabilly, etc. He might be saying, I tried this, somewhere along the way I figured out it wasn't working, but said, what the f**k, gotta ride it out. The idea that he's an "aerostar, I'm a cutlass supreme, in the wrong lane, trying to turn against the flow," is no surprise. He's big, he's very middle-class, and he's always challenging the direction of things. "Words I've spoken seem to leave a hollow sound,'' smacks of the self-criticism that Neil's known for. Other parts of the song clearly aren't as easily interpreted. If you go through the song with a fine-tooth comb, you will find references to the rider in Big Green Country, who I still haven't quite figured out, as well as baseball players, OJ, and a line that I believe is a reference to the wheat circles in England a few years back... but I could be wrong Regardless, it is definitely a fun song to take a poke at figuring out. And, I think that's all Neil really wants to do, make us think. "I'm a drug that makes you dream..." Peace and Love, Cortez the Killer
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 14:38:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheila Lipschutz <a012868t@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us> Subject: Re: Thought's on the Ocean Cortez mentions the rider in his analysis of I'm The Ocean as being from Big Green Country. (Saw the Rider once again) This rider seems to crop up throughout the history of Neil's songs (The Old Homestead, Journey Through the Past, even the road-eyes on the Rust tour) Around the time of the movie JTTP, Neil was asked about the scene with the black riders on the beach. He responded to the interviewer that these were characters from a recurring nightmare he had over the years. No further explanation as to who they were or why they were. I seem to recall him saying he didn't really know their significance. When I first heard that line in ITO that's what jumped into my mind - those Journey riders. Has anyone ever found out more about them. I would hate to think poor ol Neil is still troubled by that nightmare some 20 years later. *** it's all illusion anyway *** Sheila {Lookout Mama} a012868t@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 14:43:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Zain Patel <bp199@freenet.toronto.on.ca> Subject: Re: Thought's on the Ocean On Mon, 21 Aug 1995, Cortez The Killer (MEKucz@aol.com) wrote: > For what it's worth, I think that "I'm the ocean, I'm the giant undertow," is > a reference to Neil's place in the landscape of rock-n-roll. Perhaps a bit > tongue-in-cheek, but still a valid observation that he's the only 60s-era > rocker to produce music these days that's vital and important... Perhaps it's no accident that the members of Pearl Jam sing the line "I'm the ocean," while Neil himself sings "I'm the giant undertow." - Zain Patel Toronto, Canada
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 23:54:17 +0100 From: jpop@mapmf.pmfst.hr (Jovica Popovic) Subject: Thought`s on the Ocean > In the Spin interview, Neil describes ITO as a mish-mosh of images torn from > current society, written in a real stream of consciousness way, done very > quickly in a hotel room between PJ sessions. That's exactly how it sounds to me. A bunch of pictures thrown around... You can find references to many things in that song: reference to his situation, to Pearl Jam, stuff from television (OJ trial), american society... Anyway, is anyone has lyrics to MB typed up, I'd appreciate a copy very much (so I don't have to guess anymore)... > I think that's all Neil really wants to do, make us think. "I'm a drug that > makes you dream..." Exactly! Neil not only gave me beautiful music and imagery, Neil more than once helped me get in touch with myself and my 'own true needs'... -----------------------//----------------------------------+------------------ Jovica Popovic \\ // AMIGA: An Instrument for creative,| Official United jpop@mapmf.pmfst.hr \X/ free-thinking individuals among us.| Nations opinions Summary: | enforced by UN Anarchist, rocker, vegetarian, nonsmoking, drug-free Amigan| Security Council -----------------------------------------------------------+------------------ * Q-Blue jr. *
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 13:16:23 CDT From: "bs at AUC" <i12bent@hum.auc.dk> Subject: Re: Thought's on the Ocean MEKucz@aol.com <MEKucz@aol.com> wrote: >Rusties: > >In the Spin interview, Neil describes ITO as a mish-mosh of images torn from >current society, written in a real stream of consciousness way, done very >quickly in a hotel room between PJ sessions. I prefer a take on this song that doesn't make it an autobiographical work, but rather one of those songs where Neil assumes a different character and speaks in his voice. I base this on the beginning line, which I see as the key for interpreting this weird stream of consciousness: "I'm an accident". In real life - right now - Neil is hardly an "accident", heck he is not even in the ditch anymore... :-) In the song, though, it makes sense to me to interpret the images that follow that opening statement as those of an accident victim, drifting in and out of consciousness, in and out of dream - in other words as another "dreamer of pictures". The character "let<s> the moment last", giving him time to review items from his life, some happy: "I got her love, she's got my love too", some frightening: "screaming sirens echoing across the bay", some provocative: "homeless heroes walk<ing> the streets of their hometown", some reminiscent of things on TV: "testimony of expert witnesses on the brutal crimes of love"... The dream sequences ("On the long plain <...> tremble from the knife", and "Started dreaming <...> watched for him") of the song concern another recurring image in Neil's work: the mysterious rider, who is neither hero nor villain, or perhaps both. The typesetting of these sequences on the MB lyric sheet (they are printed in a thinner typeface, where all the rest of "I'm The Ocean", and in fact every other song EXCEPT "Big Green Country" is printed in bolds), suggests that a) these lines should be seen as inserts: visions or dream pictures AND b) they should be read in connection with the lyrics to "Big Green Country", which of course also deal with the lone grey rider or "cancer cowboy". In other words: although they are part of the dream sequence in "I'm The Ocean", they are also part of the lyrics of "Big Green Country"... So we have this wounded or dying character reviewing his life, slipping from dream to reality slowly receding from human form: "I'm not present, I'm a drug <...> I'm an Aerostar, I'm a Cutlass Supreme", until he reaches a release from pain in the oceanic image, which represents the complete regression to the womb stage that people supposedly often long to attain when losing consciousness due to drugs or when dying: "I'm the ocean, I'm the giant undertow"... I don't pretend to have explained everything in the song or devalued other interpretations, but I just wanted to point out this possible take on it, plus the interweaving of ITO and BGC... Regards, bs@AUC Dept. of Languages and Intercultural Studies Aalborg University, Denmark
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 10:44:17 EDT From: 23-Aug-1995 1046 <zia@asdg.ENET.dec.com> Subject: I'm the Beach.... I feel that I'm the Ocean is a cousin to the On The Beach cut Ambulance Blues. Both songs are epic songs melding an autobiographical nature with social commentary. Neil exposes current social problems in the manifestations of such things as the patty hearst saga (AB) and OJ's trial (ITO). LRR (no longer the only rider on this list)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:05:22 -0400 From: CharleneKi@aol.com Subject: Re: Thought's on the Ocean In a message dated 95-08-21 12:06:43 EDT, MEKucz@aol.com (Cortez the Killer) writes: >find references to the >rider in Big Green Country, who I still haven't quite figured out, as well as >baseball players, OJ, and a line that I believe is a reference to the wheat >circles in England a few years back... but I could be wrong What line refers to the wheat circles, Cortez? Could it be "Rows of zeroes, parked forever IN A DREAM?" That's really interesting. A couple of other list members and I have been talking about the Jungian archetypes in this song and others -- like ""Saw the riders once again," I believe refers back to the riders in hoods that first appeared in Neil's 1970-or-71 film "Journey Through the Past," and that he has said are riders he has long seen in a RECURRING DREAM HE HAS. That's he connection to C.F. Jung, the German psychologist who wrote "On the Interpretation of Dreams." Jung wrote that images in dreams and in art have meanings beyond the surface. Like, riders might signify a sort of uncontrolled part of the person's psyche. According to Jung, the Ocean often refers to the separation between this world and the world of oceanic consciousness -- afterlife or pre-life. Most interesting to me is the idea that recurring dreams can, according to some scientists of brain makeup, represent actual hard-wired scenes encoded in our genetic makeup. Like, in the scene from "2001: A Space Odyssey," in which the monkeys are shown messing around with rudimentary tools and suddenly there is this monolith-type thing that hums. Some people have said they have had a recurring dream about such a monolith, which seems to represent a visitation from a superiour consciousness (or something) . I, myself, had that recurring dream for about 20 years! So, that makes me really wonder about the wheat circles. Can it be that the "aliens" or whoever is making these wheat circles, are trying to contact us on a symbolic level? What do the circles mean? Are they like mirror balls in some way? All I know, from all these far-out speculations, is that (as one reviewer wrote of Mirror Ball,) Neil Young is an artist who is "IN TOUCH WITH THE SOURCE." *************Welfare Mother***************("...but I never inhaled")
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 22:39 CDT From: dbronson@wwa.com Subject: Accoustic Ocean I was listening to I'm the Ocean in the car tonight and I started wondering how it might sound slowed down and accoustic. The chord structure, melody and overall feel of the song seemed to lend itself to that. When I got home I tried it on the accoustic, with a tempo and beat similar to Drive By. It felt so right that I wonder if maybe that's how the song was written and they decided in the studio to record it electric and fast. Played accoustic, you can almost hear the harmonica solos between verses. I'd be willing to bet that if he hasn't already done so, at some point Neil will perform the song that way. Any thoughts? Longfoot
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 10:51:47 -0400 From: CharleneKi@aol.com Subject: Re: Thought's on the Ocean In a message dated 95-08-28 23:24:49 EDT, j.mullins1@genie.geis.com (Shakey) writes: >> RECURRING DREAM HE HAS. > But I say it refers to the line sung earlier in ITO that says, "On >the long plain, see the RIDER in the night". No, Shakey, I was referring to the later verse: "Laid on the bed alone, started dreaming, SAW THE RIDERS ONCE AGAIN...." See, it's a recurring dream. He has talked about them before! Also, those dark-hooded riders from "Journey" DO look something like the hooded Road-Eyes from Live Rust, as Sheila suggested. (They also, dare I suggest it, remind me of the "Ghost Riders in the Sky," that song that was done by Johnny Cash, The Outlaws, and Dolly Parton(!) ) ALSO, there is this other recurring figure from "Journey Thru the Past," and it is just as forboding. It is the figure of a bishop wearing a mitre (pointy hat like Catholic and Anglican bishops still wear). The bishop(s) recurred in Live Rust on stage with the Road Eyes, and (I think) are related to the "priest was there, religion at his side" in Song X --- like ITO, this is 17 years after Rust. Also (and this is the last time I will delve into this, Rust, so thanks for your forbearance), if film-makers (and musicians and surrealistic artists of all sorts) are using recurring dream images in their works, and IF it's true that those dreams are hard-wired into our brains, or "racial memories," then it makes sense that every time you see one of those images that you yourself have dreamed, then you are in contact with an artist who shares the same cyber-brain coding of you and your relatives from way, way back. (viz, again, the scene with the monkeys and the monolith in "2001: A Space Odyssey") Note in that movie the image of the fetus floating in space, in relation to this lyric from I'm the Ocean: ("Now I'm floating, cause I'm not tied to the ground.") ********Welfare Mother*******"(Naturally stoned)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 13:06:10 -0400 (EDT) From: GBLACK@sophia.sph.unc.edu Subject: Re: Thought's on the Ocean Let me remind you too, that "dark riders" were prominent in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy, a series of books that everyone read in the late 60s early 70s. And from what we can tell, Neil did read a lot. The dark riders were sent out by the Dark Lord of Mordor to help find the missing ring, the one that Frodo was instructed to destroy by casting it back into the fire from whence it came. Most of Tolkien had its roots in Norse mythology, and I dare say Jung would have studied lots of mythology looking for those pattersn. Gary
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 21:17:21 -0400 From: Uurevkirk@aol.com Subject: Stream of Consciousness/Raygun The Raygun article was the one of the less packaged and I thought more spontaneous of the flurry of interviews sparked by "Mirror Ball" (although one rusty commented on some factual errors, but he didn't elaborate on what they were). The reference Young made to his music being what comes to him and what it means to us the listeners being another thing all together is reminiscent of Ralph Waldo Emerson's description of a sermon. Paraphrasing: the power and meaning of a sermon is not in so much what is said but what is heard by the listener and what it sparks inside the listener. Young's music/songs are potent, I think, because they somehow tap into the unconscious of each of us, bringing to the surface in each of us only that which is unique to our own psyches. That's why his stuff is more art than entertainment; it is almost religious in its abilty to engage our souls while challenging our minds and even transforming us. The guy never ceases to amaze me. "Throw your hatred down".
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 22:25:51 -0400 From: Uurevkirk@aol.com Subject: Re: Stream of Consciousness/Raygun (revised) I meant to add two additonal references to my earlier thoughts.... The line "I'm a drug that makes you dream" speaks to the role of the artist in speaking to the unconscious. Also, in Jungian psychology and the interpretation of dreams the Ocean is representative of the collective unconscious.... "Found love in the people, living in the sacred land" -- Peace and Love.
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 00:01:44 -0400 From: Austex23@aol.com Subject: ITO Wasteland I'm the Ocean might be a rendering in music of TV channel surfing. The accidence of life isn't much different from a random selection of TV channels. The song paints a picture of Neil, his family, his viewpoint, then sprays a series of images right off cable. Indian braves in some old western. A visual display of voice mail on the TV screen. The baseball strike. OJ. Entertainment Tonight. The news. TV, the drug that makes you dream. Car ads. The (Neil) Jungian's may be right, but the ocean could also be the great sea of information, and the undertow all the consequences of being pulled passively into it. "Get off that couch," Bill
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 14:30:22 +0000 From: Anne.C.Henriksen@hint.no Subject: Re: ITO Wasteland Bill mused: >I'm the Ocean might be a rendering in music of TV channel surfing. The >accidence of life isn't much different from a random selection of TV >channels. The song paints a picture of Neil, his family, his viewpoint, then >sprays a series of images right off cable. Indian braves in some old >western. A visual display of voice mail on the TV screen. The baseball >strike. OJ. Entertainment Tonight. The news. TV, the drug that >makes you dream. Car ads. The (Neil) Jungian's may be right, but the ocean >could also be the great sea of information, and the undertow all the >consequences of being pulled passively into it. When it comes to a song like I'm The Ocean, I feel that it really pushes us way beyond a point of talking about "right" and "non-right" interpretations. To me, this makes the song really fascinating. I read Rustie interpretations that are based on totally different perceptions, and I say "Yes, this interpretation is also a good and consistent way of seeing this song". Neil probably wrote ITO with no special interpretation in mind--using a stream of consiousness style. Because of this the song seems to take also the role of *becoming* some of those lines he wove into it. I'm a drug that makes you dream, I'm a giant undertow. We are given a seemingly unstructured chaos of impressions, and each of us dives down into our creative sources of associations. And, we find interpretations to the lyrics that are meaningful, with full relevance to the text. Rusties are a musing kind of people, so it can't surprise anyone that so many consistent and totally different interpretations emerge. I love seeing them all -- kinda boggles my mind that there are so many great ways of understanding the same song. The question of what Neil might/might not have meant with these words remains so hypothetical. Jungian literary analysis is just one of many approaches to understanding lyrics. From what I've seen Jungians themselves love discussions and seeing the many ways a poem, a text, or even a dream can be interpreted. To me, Bush League Batter's associations can still hit my funny bone when I hear this song. Though, it might seem that the sperm already found its destiny. Yes--maybe it's a *fetus* that we finally hear speaking up. Telling his mother how it feels to be floating around...with all the impressions of the world trickling in with concerning impact. And maybe feeling a little worried about ending up as a giant undertow towards his parents--and the world. ;-) But, that's just *one* way I like to see ITO--I have others as well. So let the ideas flow, and feel the beauty of knowing that diverging opinions don't need to compete with each other. Together they might be making a conglomerate of understanding that can be *really* worth going for-! take care, Anne --------- * ---------- Lady of the North Star
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 16:49:00 +0000 From: Anne.C.Henriksen@hint.no Subject: I'm The Ocean The past weeks a thread has been weaving to and fro on I'm The Ocean. Seems to be just as many ways of seeing this song as there are individual pairs of eyes to see with. C.G.Jung has been mentioned by several. Welfare Mother has taken a long look into ITO from this view. And her perceptions are close to those others might have with a Jung angling. Actually--I've been somewhat distracted for the past weeks because I've been deep down into discussing (guess what) "I'm The Ocean" - with another Rustie. :-} Wolfgang D of Germany and I discovered that we shared a kinda weird interest: in C.G.Jung's Philosophy and Psychology. So we got to writing together on private basis, diving into a strange journey of interpreting these lyrics that are so open to different associations. We've been partially basing our perceptions on Jung's ideas, but only being loyal to the old bugger when it has suited us (we Rusties are individualists!) ;-) I gotta admit, when we started this it really got rolling, and the amount of e-mail between us became large. After a while W. compiled all the paragraphs that contained the discussion on I'm The Ocean. And set them up independently as a dialogue. Then we wondered if it might interest other Rusties than just us. To many it might seem as a "different" way of looking into lyrics--maybe too different. But exploring song texts is a venture that many Rusties appreciate, so we decided to post it. The dialogue is very long. In its rough format, it can been seen as a real document of interactive discussion here on the NET -- with all the spontanity and flaws that this implies. Sent separately is an intro Wolfgang has written explaining briefly some Jungian theory and terms for those who are interested. For those who don't like lyric discussions, just use your delete buttons- :-) I'm The Ocean will never cease awakening new associations in us people. Wolfgang and I hope our 'off-line' discussion also can be one contribution to the general discussion this song. Anne Henriksen (Anne.C.Henriksen@pat.hint.no) Wolfgang Deimel (wolfgang@mvkjp2.kjp.uni-marburg.de)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 16:50:23 +0000 From: Anne.C.Henriksen@hint.no From: Wolfgang Deimel <wolfgang@mvkjp2.kjp.uni-marburg.de> Subject: I'm The Ocean - a dialogue A dialogue on ITO between two Rusties with a shared enthusiasm for C.G.Jung's Psychology -------------------------------------------------- A: "I'm The Ocean" can be understood in very interesting ways if you take Jungian interpretation into consideration. To me ITO is dealing with the introvert sides of a personality -- in addition to subconscious drives of the soul. W: The first thing I notice is that the narrator (should we say Neil?) puts himself down. "I'm an accident" is a terrible statement, I would expect these as last words of someone commiting suicide. Images of tossing and floating ("not tied to the ground") second this impression of someone who definitely has lost his direction. (That brings this line from Cortez to mind: I don't know where or when I've lost my way.) A: Undoubtably Neil writes about how a total loss of direction can be felt. SWA can also make you wonder if this could be a relevant topic for NY to write about. :-( I'm The Ocean is rich with symbols and archetypal images. Though some are still unclear to me. W: Well, most of them a very unclear to me ;-) I don't know why it is that I have so many difficulties with these lyrics. To me, MB is harder to understand than any other NY album before. From the very first line of I'm The Ocean, I wonder what it's about. A: Yes. Though I also find other albums difficult--e.g. SWA had a lot of undersurface things going on, and was in my opinion much more an album that could give spooky associations. To be understood I feel MB might be seen in relationship to its preceedor. You talk of NY stating "I'm an accident. I was driving way too fast". Associations of mortality, maybe suicide are possibilities. But they could just as well (probably, hopefully..) be mirroring in *retropective* some of the dissolution of the SWA period. :-( I've seen that people who've some time or other felt a luring towards death tend to talk about it sooner or later. But, I'm The Ocean could also be dealing with much more positive encounters. The last verse of the song can seem almost bitter to me. With a sadness and relentlessness that comes through several times in this album... You feel so clearly the irony and the bitterly lonely fate it must be to have been declared "a hero and legend" during your own life time. A person that's not really seen as a true person by his followers - but more as a profet or an agent who evokes drives and the undertows of the ocean in those who follow him. W: One idea I had yesterday: besides the 2 dream sequences, the entire song is like a dream. It's somewhat erratic. A: Yes. W: There is no real plot. It definitely lacks logic. Themes change rapidly. A: I don't quite agree here. I've been trying to register some of Neil's interview comments on MB to find a platform maybe based on more than my own associations. These lyrics can at first sight seem disconnected or with a stream-of-conscious-like incoherency. After having listened many times, a coherency within the lyrics does seem to emerge; also emerging are connections between the different songs on this album. W: Right the beginning seems to play upon words: "I'm an accident, I was driving way too fast". This sentence would make sense if you changed it to "I had an accident, because I was driving way too fast". A: The statement startles you. Another way to see it: "I'm feeling like one big accident, 'cos once again it seems I'm heading in for disaster: I've been living way too headlong lately". Oh, I still need some more unravelling before letting go to the idea of this song relating basically to two elements: Meeting his inner realm and meeting a somewhat unexpected feminine archetype of The Rider. And later, he relates to "the giant undertow". Related themes seem in different ways to be vibrating behind all the nine last songs of the album. I bet it is not a coincidence that Fallen Angel originally was written as the intro to ITO. Now instead of marking what ITO is about, it's been used as the bottom line song of the whole album. I understand the lines of verse 2 "While I run away with you" as one of NY's "signals" of going down into the realms within him, seeking the introvertive and also the halfconscious fantasy world he often seems the need to relate to. W: Do you think there are "signals" in other songs? Which? A: I feel Neil often gives some kind of signal -- describes an emotional state, uses a clear logical breach--or symbols that make you react. Like in The Old Homestead ("The naked rider gallops through his head"). Or in Prime Of Life he mentions a two-way mirror. I'm The Ocean addresses itself to a "You", an elusive being. You wonder who the song might be addressing itself to. For reasons only Neil knows, he wants to confirm his standing points to his family before "running away with the you" in his inner fantasies. W: The words about his family sound like a reassurance, as if he wanted to say to himself, I cannot be SO worthless and bad. As opposed to that, the words about what he needs (need random violence, need distraction and so on) sound somewhat offensive and non-PC. A: IMHO Neil has always been non-PC when he's in his introvertive mode. Under the surface we are kinda un-PC. ;-) And God knows why, but some creative artists feel such an urge to be honest enough to write/paint/dance etc uncensored about these things. The words about his family: yes, perhaps they are a reassurance--before he takes the 'bold dive' down into a chaotic inner realm of Chieftains and wild Braves -- and this phantom Woman-Rider. W: In terms of C.G.Jung, I see two archetypes. First, of course, the ocean/undertow thing. There are some remarks about the ocean floor, too. A: I don't actually see the remarks of the ocean floor---where? W: Actually, it's only one remark and only possibly the ocean floor: "not tied to the ground". This is the Original Mother Archetype. It refers to the earliest stage of human development BEFORE birth and before consciousness. Expressing associated images like undertow express the longing to go back, to escape from life's demands. If an individual wants to regress to this early stage, this is called "Uroboros Incest", because he wants to re-join the Original Mother/Uroboros in a non-sexual incest, in other words: he wants to disappear, to subtract his Ego from the world. A: You're rather worried about Neil, Wolfgang---? W: Not really. I think he has overcome more dangerous periods. A: Yeah...so it can seem. I just do hope you're right... The Ocean/undertow image is undoubtably focusing on some of the deepest and most subconscious parts of our souls. The Uroboros can also be seen as an image of "total unity". I believe Erich Neumann/Jung go so far as to suggest that mankind's deeper religious longings are based on the images we have gained from our earliest phase of total unity with the 'Original Mother' (doesn't Neuman's book "The History of Consciousness" suggest this?). I tend to associate the Ocean of this song more with these aspects, than those of dissolution and self-destruction. W: The other archetype concerns the rider. This is the image of the hero, and it's called the Mana Personality Archetype. A: I'd suggest that the lone grey rider of the *next* song suits this Jungian Mana Archetype better. Maybe it's an extension of ITO in some way or other. The Rider in I'm The Ocean is in contrast a *feminine* archetype, and therefore part of the Amina. In the second Rider-sequence NY specifies: Saw the rider once again In the doorway Where she stood and watched for him Watched for him. In other words it cannot be a traditional Mana Archetype, where the Hero is striving to take control over the Anima forces. (Though Big Green Country is a fantasy in its next stage that obviously *does* focus on these ideas). No. If this Woman-Rider *also* is the "you" of the song, she does seems to have some supernatural/heroic forces (..I can't hear you, but I feel the things you say..etc), and she seems to cover great distances (..from the city far away etc). But, she must have a different function than that of overthrowing the Anima. I believe she must be part of the Anima complex, or maybe even beyond the anima/mana complex--as an image of possible salvation from our inner pain. In the 3rd verse Neil tells us he can't see her--"but he knows what's in his way". This suggests qualities of guidance as to which paths that might lead forward--he can hear what she says. In the next verse the Braves (the wild, uncontrollable forces within ourselves?) are seen "in cool moonlight"--an old & good symbol of feminine aspects. Neil wonders who will love and cherish them as they continue doing that what is their determination: their "unlovable" deeds of destructiveness. As a whole, the Woman-Rider might be related to the Inca Queen image expressed on Life. Sometimes Neil's Great Mothers might seem to have some apocatastasic qualtities. To me this song ties up with Fallen Angel. And several other MB songs. W: I'm very surprised to see that there are 2 ways of understanding the Rider sequence you quoted above: Anne: Saw the rider once again / In the doorway where she (the rider) stood and watched for him (Neil?) Wolfgang: Saw the rider once again / In the doorway where she (She) stood and watched for him (the rider). My version would be in line with BGC, where the rider is referred to as "He". But he also might have changed his gender, what do I know? ;-) A: Yes! I can see your version. Actually this is kind of fascinating---you CAN actually see this Rider just as well in both genders! A coincidence, otherwise it would seem a bit schizophrenic, and complicated maybe beyond yin yang concepts. Yes, it *could* be a man...the lyrics can be seen this way too. I feel that this can fit very well into a logical understanding of the song. Yes---I also think this Rider should be masculine. The 'you' is probably a death archetype or something along that line. The 'she' is the anima. W: I'm not convinced yet that the Rider is a man. The words *are* ambigous, it *could* as well be a woman. But if it's a man, we've got a lot of Jung's personnel gathered together in one song. I'd say the "you" is the Shadow. A: Oh gosh....now that I've gotten this interpretation all knitted so neatly together! And, you suggest the Rider *might* of course be a woman, anyway. This is gonna mean me unmoding again, and thinking anew-! Oh, I'll have to think tomorrow, it's too late for me now. W: Well, I don't want to force my interpretation on you. But if you're convinced of the male Rider, I'll agree. According to Jung, after overcoming the Anima Complex (if it's a man) one has to deal with the Mana Personality. The male version is the hero, the female version would be the Great Mother (not to be confused with the Original Mother). Jung says that associated images indicate major conflicts. The hero is a trap. One is so proud of overcoming the Anima, that one feels like a hero, but it's just another part of the collective unconscious taking control. If we see a normal development, a person would have to deal with Anima/Animus first. If he or she overcomes these, the next step is the Hero/Great Mother. In case of the hero, Jung explains that nearly everybody is so proud of overcoming the Anima that he feels like an hero. That's the trap you asked about: instead of overcoming the Hero like one did with the Anima, one identifies with the Mana Personality. Besides this development, Jung mentions that images of the Hero occuring in dreams indicate that there are problems/conflicts. The person is in a phase then where he has to make difficult decisions for his further life, e.g. A: This seems to concur with impressions we have had. This song might be about some of the hidden undertows of our subconsciousness--both the Mana--and the archetype of the Original Mother with all those strange luring and traps towards dissolution and death. Though no one can possibly remain and survive for long within all these death visions. He would have to take some profoundly basic decisions. In Peace And Love there are the lines: "Now you decide Stay for the children". Actually maybe 'Peace And Love' could be about a battle of meeting life again; seeking the few essential truths that may have validy to lead you on. W: So, let's summarize our "unidentified occuring persons": I see "She", "You", and the Rider. I'd suggest that we concentrate on these UOPs. You already said something about the Woman-Rider of your perception. Concerning my version I'd like to add: (very speculative!) According to Jung, Neil would meet the Anima first. This would be our She. He can't really identify or see her, but he feels that she tries to speak to him (I can't hear you...). Next the Rider/Mana Personality appears and strives to gain control (where she stood and watched for him - this would mean she knows she's beaten). OK, that's very vague. But maybe it inspires you to have better ideas ;-) Another thought: Could it be that ITO is from Cobain's point of view? At least partly? "People my age, they don't do the things I do / they go somewhere, while I run away with you" - this would get a complete different, but tho intruiging meaning! A: That Cobain thought has also struck me the past days. The "you" of ITO might just as well relate directly to him, or as I suggested to some kind of death archetype. The song contains logic this way. Actually I tend to believe in this solution. Look also at Peace And Love: "Too young to die....You don't really want to go, Can't feel it pulling like you did..", "Strength is gone, dying inside..". I just don't know---but if we want to find suicidalness/death fixations in this album, it got a whole lot of them... W: We're talking only about the lyrics, but what's with the music? If you heard ITO sung in an unknown language, what would you expect the words to be about? To me, lyrics and music don't harmonize very well. Do you think the same? And if so, what does this mean? A: I feel that ITO is sung with an almost spooky indifference. A numbness that describes an emotional point reaching beyond pain. I dunno. It's far-fetched that this album is as fixed on death as we're talking about now. I doubt people have the capacity to relate to death with that much impact. If we are to maintain sanity we must see solutions, paths that can guide/lead us on and through all this darkness. I take for granted that MB is also expressing forces and archetypes of hope. Not least in the savior-image of Fallen Angel. ...It occurs to me that in the way Neil often writes he seems to describe a person with a lot of destructive qualities within him. I should think this might be linked to the first line of ITO "I'm an accident". Don't you? W: Yes. But what's been confusing me from the beginning is this "I *am*". It's an unusual kind of identification, both with the accident (one is usually "having" one instead of "being" one), and the ocean. It's weird. I don't know. If a person's attracted by those Origin Mother images, I wouldn't expect this overwhelming identification. A: I don't know, maybe. Actually maybe we should take the time to look into these Shadow aspects. Neil has often through his lyrics, portrayed a person who sometimes can seem rather *cornered*. Using my own terms, a person quite scared of the destructive forces he has obviously known to be active within himself. Scared perhaps, of them barring him from being able to dive into 'Love's Innocence'. I.e. the vision of love we've seen in NY's lyrics though these 30 years. Oh I dunno--maybe this vision of his has been a bit too Rousseau to meet reality without conflicts. Or maybe it's been too Great Mother dominated. W: I think you're definitely on the right way here! Let me suggest Anima instead of Great Mother. A: Yes. Anima. (Tho to ME it is the Great Mother, ain't no animas within my soul). But no matter---it seems that his vision of love *has* been a major drive in his life. And, he does seem to have combined this vision with a lot other drives, drives that are probably very good in his life. Because of this: If he lost his vision of love, or the belief that it is obtainable, he would also fear risking to loose a whole lot more that's important. I'd say that in this way the fear of Shadow forces are pointed to the Anima. Or (in hoping for a comfortable solution) to his wife--as the woman who "could have" solved his problem. And also they are pointed within himself: the fear of being "unlovable" as I suggested in an earlier posting about who's gonna love those braves. Hmblgrhhh, I am getting hypothetical again........and off-road Jung. W: Great ideas, which road whatsoever! I just understood why I sometimes feel so uncomfortable with his hippie-dom. A: Um, I don't really---I guess to me it seems that MB is reaching beyond the Rousseau/anima dominated love vision of the hippies. I feel Neil has always also had perceptions beyond this--a guiding star that has seen farther, motivating him to seek beyond. Thematically one can see Mirror Ball as a "next-stage-album" after SWA. It confronts some of the same themes: of life/death -- of hope prevailing despondancy. Of kindling a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being. These themes seem now to be met more in retrospective. They exceed SWA in profoundness; reaching into depths even beyond pain. Mirror Ball leads on in the same quest as 'A Dream That Can Last'. Though, the answers given are few and naked -- but strong enough to give base to pylons. It expresses hope; searching for, sorting out essencial values on which firmer foundations can be built. More than SWA, to me Mirror Ball is about a lasting power that can't be denied. And: I do feel that I'm The Ocean can be understood in very different ways and levels: the many ways different Rusties understand it might be closer to what Neil was thinking of. Don't think he'd expect but a few persistent deep-diggers to plow out ideas like ours..! What do you think of this? W: You seem to be quite fascinated of the idea of Neil being a Jungian. Well, I don't think he is one, at least not consciously. In a recent interview Neil said that the lyrics of ITO were "like a flash", "a bunch of pictures". This assured me in my opinion that ITO is very similar to a dream. The consequence is that psychological analysis is probably more appropriate than literate analyis. But, on the other hand, dream analysis without including what the dreamer has to say about or associate with the dream pictures is just not responsible or serious. Some of the images will be very idiosyncratic and in it's interpretation out of reach to any other person while you don't ask him. What makes Jung so interesting is that he stresses so much the primacy of experience. So you could say he hasn't developed any theories at all, but just described his (and others') experiences. That means, one can be Jungian without ever having heard that name. If one's connected to "the source" by one's experiences. A: You're probably right, thought it's quite a coincidence that Neil's lyrics can include classical Jungian terms. "Like a flash"...what do you think of all those images in the fifth and sixth verse? Voicemail numbers On an old computer screen Rows of lovers... They're dream-like, or like a movie projector showing lots of flashbacks. What they might mean isn't easy to suggest. Yes, all my associations here end up very individualistic. Voicemail numbers on an old computer screen: for both of us *personally* it's close to associate this to an influence in our lives--Rust, with all its contributers. Though *which* computer voice mail influences these lines refer to, we can't possibly know (...advanced computer sound technology?). And the old boats in a distant city -- when I hear that, I very subjectively see the old Viking boats in Oslo. But I don't expect others do! Screaming sirens echoing... leaves me with feelings of reaching out in despair. No, these associations aren't helpful. W: These images seem to be *very* individualistic, everyone will have their own associations; or, in other words: I feel as I'm in someone elses dream, and it's quite impossible for me to grasp the meaning. (And maybe not my right to try to). These "flashing" images could have a connection to the "screaming sirens" and the accident of line 1. Abruptly changing and hardly connected thoughts and pictures would fit in what we assume to happen when someone has a severe accident. But I feel somewhat uncomfortable with interpreting these idiosyncratic images. I think it would be better to accept that there are limits of understanding lyrics like these. Let's accept that there are secrets we can't reach.
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 1995 11:49:53 -0500 From: heinsohn@pd.saic.com Subject: wheat fields/riders/etc shakey said way back: > That would be "rows of LOVERS". The rows of zeros are on the field >that's turning brown. Which always made me think of a run down ball field, >teh zeros being the scoreboard after several dull innings... No, no, no....the rows of zeroes are the striking ball players themselves. He's got the field being brown because it had not been used in so long. (Now for a pet peeve of mine --- Do I really need to add the "IMO" disclaimer.....I mean, obviously it, along with everything else I say or write, is only MO.) re: the repitition of the riders --- these riders are through out NY history...he sees them "once again" because he's been seeing them or dreaming about them for 20 years now....didn't we already talk about this? Some of the places they show up....JTTP movie, Old Homestead, ITO, BGC, etc...where else? (And yes, Shakey, I see your point, too...but I purposely won't agree with you since you wouldn't play the song straight thru!) :-) bh btw..forget this "tossing"...I'm for dreamin in my sleep (RF I/NYC review later on. Time to work...just a little bit..now.) ~~~the music matters~~~
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 10:19:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Harold Kamm <mhk@acpub.duke.edu> Subject: Re: wheat fields/riders/etc On Tue, 5 Sep 1995 heinsohn@pd.saic.com wrote> > shakey said way back: > > That would be "rows of LOVERS". The rows of zeros are on the field > >that's turning brown. Which always made me think of a run down ball field, > >teh zeros being the scoreboard after several dull innings... > > No, no, no....the rows of zeroes are the striking ball players themselves. > He's got the field being brown because it had not been used in so long. > (Now for a pet peeve of mine --- Do I really need to add the "IMO" > disclaimer.....I mean, obviously it, along with everything else I say or > write, is only MO.) > I think you're on the right track here. I agree that the field is brown from misuse, and go a bit farther to say that the "rows of zeroes" -- i.e., $7,000,000 -- have become more important than the players themselves. If this is what you meant by "the rows of zeroes are the striking ball players themselves," then I didn't mean to step on your point. Neil seems to have been unusually concerned with sports during the few days he wrote MB. His comments to Dave Marsh about Scenery suggested that he associated the song with young sports heroes. Harpoon Dodger
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 1995 13:56:54 EDT From: Wolfgang Deimel <wolfgang@mvkjp2.kjp.uni-marburg.de> Subject: Jung intro A short introduction to C.G.Jung -------------------------------- The Swiss psychiatrist Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961) was one of Sigmund Freud's disciples. He first met Freud in 1907 and was fascinated of the idea of the Unconscious. According to Freud, certain thoughts can be felt as unbearable for different reasons, and thus will be excluded from our Conscious. If these repressed elements do not find a way of assimilation they might cause neuroses. While Freud stressed the sexual aspect of of 'what keeps us going', Jung understood the term 'Libido' more general as life's energy. Growing differences between Jung and Freud led to their departure in 1913. Others have also claimed that the Unconscious contains collective elements, but mainly this idea has been considered developed by Jung. He considered himself to be more a practitioner who very often stressed the role of experience as a key to the comprehension of his ideas, which makes the explanation of the central terms rather difficult. Anyway, I will try and give some definitions to key terms. The Collective Unconscious (CO) can be understood as our heritage: a concentrated collection of experiences and emotions of thousands of generations. A central term in this context is the so-called *Archetype*. It has often been misunderstood as a bunch of ancestral pictures that might occur in contemporaries, but it is rather the *idea* or structure of such images, that might appear individually shaped in certain individuals. They often refer to religious images. The *Origin Mother* is an archetype relevant to the understanding of I'm The Ocean. It refers to the earliest stage of human development before we started conscious thinking. Images expressed like oceans and undertows and loss of ego boundaries can have something to do with the longing to go back, to escape from life's demands. Another expression of this Archetype is the so-called *Uroboros*: a snake that bites its own tail and thus forms a circle. The modern human being knows hardly anything about this heritage. If the elements of the CO 'inflate' the conscious this may lead to serious illness (e.g. schizophrenia). Our daily life experience shows that we seldom see what people really are, but what they want us to believe they are. Thus everyone wears some kind of mask they hide behind to a certain extent. This mask is part of the CO and often expressed by a certain role one choses, e.g. a profession. Jung calls it *Persona*. While this mask often appears to be a caricature of the real Self, it has to be balanced by another part of the CO, the *Anima* (in men), or *Animus* (in women). These complexes represent traits of the opposite sex within the personality. These forces form a fragile balance that easily can be disturbed, in general there is a tendency of the CO to take control over certain aspects of the personality. This also applies to the so-called *Shadow* that represents negative traits that we often do not want to see or accept. Therefore it is often experienced as an autonomous being. Feelings of being posessed by something or someone can be seen in this context. Neil Young mentions this Shadow several times, e.g. in LOW: "Me and my shadow, we're so in despair / we keep hurting someone who cares". There are several other terms that we use in our dialog, but from my point of view they are explained by the context.
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 16:47:50 +0000 From: Anne.C.Henriksen@hint.no Subject: Jung intro (by Wolfgang) Hey Wolfgang, Your intro isn't signed-! If you don't sign it a lot of Rusties are gonna credit it to ME I bet...! :-D I didn't know for sure if you got any obscur reasons for not signing it, otherwise I could always have done this for you. But anyway it would feel so absurd signing a document for someone else-! Great intro! Hope to be hearing from you soon. Anne -------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 95 17:13:08 -0500 From: Preston Nichols <nichols@godel.math.cmu.edu> Subject: We Are The Ocean (long) Greetings fellow Rustniks, This post organizes some thoughts that have been accumulating in my brain (and vicinity) since June. So it's long. ******************* For some reason, "I'm the Ocean" has generated far more discussion on Rust than any of the other songs on Mirror Ball. The analysis seems to surge and ebb, with brief periods of intense discussion being separated by intervals of little or no comment. This first big wave broke with Bush League Batter's interpretation in terms of the adventures of a gamete (Jul 5). The next surge (Aug 3) was triggered by Bush League Batter's game of decoding the acronyms of the Mirror Ball titles, revealing "I'm the Ocean" as being about the O.J. Simpson trial, but the discussion soon turned (back?) to the subterranean, mythic meaning of the ocean, the rider in the night, and the rest. A few weeks later (Aug 19), the doughty Uncle Dave identified the giant undertow as the eveloping and brutalising influence of the mass media, here in the conscious world. Our own Cortez (Aug 21) read the song as a reflection by Neil on his place in the music business. But within a day or two, Lookout Mama and bs at AUC (among others) had taken the conversation back toward the mythic archetypes. Soon (Welfare Mother, Aug 28), the rising tide of Jungian analysis became a relentless storm crashing on the beach. Rusters also started mentioning Tolkien and Emerson, dreams and souls. And yesterday, just as I was preparing to write this up, the Lady of the North Star made a Freudian slip (?!) and shared with us her very interesting dialogue with Wolfgang. I am not so well-informed about Jung as they are, so my contribution will not dig so deep into the details, but here it is. We are the Ocean. ******************* Last June, after we learned that "I'm the Ocean" was one of the Mirror Ball titles, but before the album was released, I experienced a little synchronicity in action:-). I suddenly seemed to be finding other artists who claimed they were the ocean, too. Here's the first one; brace yourself! I am an estuary into the sea. I am a wave of the ocean. I am the sound of the sea. I am a powerful ox. I am a hawk on a cliff. I am a dewdrop in the sun. I am a plant of beauty. I am a boar for valour. I am a salmon in a pool. I am a lake in a plain. I am the strength of art. This is attributed to Amhairghin, poet of the sons of Mil, on their arrival in Ireland from Spain, sometime between 350 BCE and 400 CE. (It can be hard to date material from prehistoric oral traditions:-).) [Translation from ancient Irish by Proinsias MacCana, in Celtic Mythology (London, 1968)] The images in Amhairghin's poem follow a thrilling trajectory from water to sky back to water again, but the water at the end is not the same water as at the beginning. The poem starts in the water of primeval formlessness (the ocean), and through brute exertion (a powerful ox) achieves a stark transcendence (a hawk on a cliff). It then branches out into the manifold aspects of human sustenance and community (plants and freshwater pools, beauty and valour). And lastly, the astonishing summation: "I am the strength of art," in which "I" could be Amhairghin, or the poem itself, or ancient Celtic civilization, or the collective unconscious, the life-force of the world. The amazing thing about this poem is that when we (or I, anyway) get to that last line, it hits home without irony. In the 20th century, it is almost impossible for anyone (playing any character) to say "I am the strength of art" and be taken seriously. Just think of Barry Manilow singing, "I write the songs that make the whole world sing." I know some people think the next item belongs in the same category as Barry Manilow (and yes, I know some people love Barry). But anyway, here it is. Peace--A Beginning I am the ocean Lit by the flame I am the mountain Peace is my name I am the river Touched by the wind I am the story I never end. These are Peter Sinfield's words to the opening song on In the Wake of Poseidon, a King Crimson album from 1970. (By the way, the cover art on this album is a painting called The 12 Archetypes, by someone named Tammo de Jongh.) Sinfield's sequence of images has some similarities to Amhairghin's, but there are differences too. The declamatory statements "I am..." are softened by lines in the passive voice, in which the speaker becomes the receptive object of external ("masculine"?) actions (lit by the flame, touched by the wind). However, the boldness of the final lines is still there. ******************* If you're still reading, you may be thinking, "Yeah, yeah, but I thought this list was about Neil Young!" Right. In "I'm the Ocean", Neil sings: I can't hear you But I feel the things you say I can't see you But I see what's in my way Now I'm floatin' Cause I'm not tied to the ground Words I've spoken Seem to leave a hollow sound and now we're in a totally different world from the poems above. For me, the contrast is visceral, and it holds through the whole song. Neil speaks from and about a world in which alienation, attenuation, disillusionment, fragmentation, isolation, and desperation are pervasive features of the psychic environment. Comparing "I'm the Ocean" to the other poems makes this aspect of the song, and of Neil's music generally, clearly visible. It's hard to imagine Neil exulting about "the strength of art". Yet some people have said the music on Mirror Ball is "uplifting", and I don't really disagree. The psychic world of Neil's songs is *our* world, and when Neil's there with us, we're not so alone. And as bleak as that world may seem sometimes, most of us generally manage to live our lives, often even losing sight of the "bleakness". Though we have periods of wandering, grief, or seemingly futile struggle, there are also moments of happiness and fulfillment, flashing "like a water-washed diamond in a river of sin." But "I'm the Ocean" is about the undertow, the abyss which always awaits us, and the awareness that we might go under. ******************* Long as this message is, this is not everything I've thought of to say about this topic (for example, what about "Will to Love"?), but it's enough. Of course, everyone else's ideas are right too. (No grin; I'm serious.) --Preston (who sometimes thinks about ancient Irish poetry when he really should be thinking about using weakly differentiable calibrations to optimize generalized energy functionals on submersions of symmetric spaces and Grassmann manifolds. Can you guess why:-)?)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:01:26 -0400 From: CharleneKi@aol.com Subject: Re: I'm The Ocean - a dialogue In a message dated 95-09-08 00:01:58 EDT, Anne.C.Henriksen@hint.no writes: >Thematically one can see Mirror Ball as a "next-stage-album" after SWA. It >confronts some of the same themes: of life/death -- of hope prevailing >despondancy. Of kindling a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being. >These themes seem now to be met more in retrospective. They exceed SWA in >profoundness; reaching into depths even beyond pain. Mirror Ball leads on >in the same quest as 'A Dream That Can Last'. Though, the answers given are >few and naked -- but strong enough to give base to pylons. and her correspondent, Wolfgang, writes: W: Yes. But what's been confusing me from the beginning is this "I *am*". It's an unusual kind of identification, both with the accident (one is usually "having" one instead of "being" one), and the ocean. It's weird. I don't know. If a person's attracted by those Origin Mother images, I wouldn't expect this overwhelming identification. TO WOLFGANG'S CONUNDRUN, I PROPOSE WE GO BACK TO JASON'S ORIGINAL PROPOSITION: THAT THE ACCIDENT OCCURRED IN COITUS. AS FOR ANNE'S ASSERTION OF THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS ALBUM, ARTISTICALLY, I FULLY AGREE. AND THIS SONG IS THE CLINCHER. SORRY FOR SHOUTING, BUT I COULDN'T FIGURE OUT, IN AMONG ALL THOSE QUOTES ABOVE, HOW MY ANSWER WOULD APPEAR TO BE READ AS SEPARATE. Also, ever since May when I heard there was going to be a song called "I'm the Ocean, I'm the Giant Undertow," I felt distinctly uncomfortable, not to say worried, about the state of Neil's mind. He's a survivor, though, of course. Plus, ITO ROCKS! ************Welfare Mother***************
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 95 17:53:08 -0500 From: Preston Nichols <nichols@godel.math.cmu.edu> Subject: Marsh MB interview transcript Dear Rustos, A while ago, when I was thinking somewhat intensively about I'm the Ocean, I transcribed the part of the Dave Marsh interview of Neil for the MB broadcast premier. This is the part after they played Scenery, leading up to I'm the Ocean. Near the beginning, Dave Marsh refers to someone who said something when Neil was inducted into the RnRHoF. I couldn't make out the name, so I took a guess. If you know who he's talking about, let me know. (It reads a little strangely, because I transcribed all the false starts, interruptions, and stutters. I'm not sure why I did it that way, but it was interesting. I used to think I was fairly competent at giving accurate quotations of statements I hear, but I have been *totally* humbled on this point.) I have no plans to transcribe the rest of the interview. :-) P. Nichols --------------------------------------- Dave Marsh (DM) interviewing Neil Young (NY) during the broadcast premier of Neil's album Mirror Ball, June 1995, just before they play "I'm the Ocean". DM: And uh, we now come up to one of the great Neil Young themes, actually, just sort of makes a brief appearance in this next song, uh, which is, which is about uh, youth and age. This is goes back to I Am a Child, and [Ament??] talked about this at, when you were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, remember? NY: Yeah, I think, yeah, I remember him mentioning this. DM: Yeah, about --- NY: This song --- DM: Because there's I am a child, and there's, there's Sugar Mountain, and there's Old Man, and just, throughout your career, you've, you've managed to make a lot of comments about maturity, and the lack thereof, uh, in a way that most people wouldn't in rock songs, and that, that crops up here in I'm the Ocean. NY: Yeah, I gue--, it does, it kind of, uh, it's, it's something I keep coming back to, I guess, and I, I, I figure if I ever work it out I'll stop writing about it. DM: Well you shouldn't, I mean, it's actually, it's one of the things that you introduce, it's one of the themes that you introduced into rock and roll, I think, before anybody else, really, and when you were quite young. Mm, you *were* a child when you wrote I am a child, practically. NY: You remember that song by Paul Anka called Puppy Love? DM: Yeah, you ever done that? NY: I'll spare you. DM: (laughs) First song you ever sang on stage? NY: I'll put my earphones on again after that. DM: (laughs some more) Well I was trying to figure out, I asked you about this before, but I will now ask you about it again in public. What did ---, I am the Ocean has this, this, this rather different perspective in the lyrics, about, uh, I was trying to figure, like, I was saying, first I thought, well the guy ---, we're hearing this from someone from beyond the grave, and then I decided it was someone dreaming that they were dead. NY: Well you know, someone else was trying, someone uh, uh, showed me a video plan that they had for this song, and it, and uh, it had that same kind of thing you're talking about. But you know a song doesn't mean that much--- it doesn't mean that to me. I'm, I'm not, maybe its kind of like, you know, a bunch of flashes of things going on all at the same time, or something. So you, so you get kind of the feeling your life is kind of flashing before you, so that makes you kind of think that you're floating up on the ceiling somewhere, watching. But I, I think it's uh, I wasn't thinking about that . I just uh, I just really kind of got caught up in this, in this thing where everything just kept happening, and, and all I could do was just write it down, but it wasn't going backwards, it was going forwards. So, you know, finally, uh, I just went, you know, I tried not to think about what I was writing, I just tried to keep going. And now, when I listen to it it's different every time, you know. DM: Well, again, it's one of the, of the really, packed with imagery and a lot of things float by, and there is this wonderful comment about, about not being like other people your age, which --- NY: Yeah, I always see my, I always see my wife, there's one, there's one part where I always see my wife, every time I hear it, and I see my kids, and uh, and it's real pure, it's right there, you know, that's one of the things I remember about that. DM: Well, it's funny, you know, because when you say I'm not like other people my ---, and then you start talking about, I spend my time with you, and stuff, and it was very clear to me that you, that in some fashion you meant your family. NY: Yeah, and, and it's just whoever I'm with, but it's, it's uh, I don't know I'm really not that --- You know the song is really wrong, you know, I am, I am a lot like everybody else that's my age, you know, and I look around and I look at myself I'm pretty well, you know, all my friends, I'm not that different from them. DM: Except maybe the music thing. NY: Yeah, the music thing kind of, yeah DM: I meant, I meant ---, NY[?]: ``The music thing'', god, huh, --- DM: I didn't mean being a musician, I meant being open ... NY: Yeah. DM: ... to new sounds, the way you were talking about before. NY: Yeah, I'm, you know ... DM: 'Cause at some level, musician, being a musician is a job, a profession ... NY: Well, being a, being a musician is like a, it's like a balancing act. You just uh, there's a certain time when you're right, and you got to recognize what it is, and then make your life work so that you can stop doing whatever it is, and, and write when you want --- need to write. Then you don't have to be writing all the time trying to, hoping that you're going to write something good. You're only going to write when you want to, and whenever you write, it'll be okay, because you didn't do it, it happened to you. DM: So writing and performing real different experiences for you ... NY: Yeah. DM: ... that way? NY: Yeah, yes they are 'cause performing has a schedule, right, that's the difference. DM: A performance, more structured, in a sense. NY: Absolutely, sure, ... DM: Uh huh. NY: ... sure, yeah, eight o'clock, ... DM: You got to be there. NY: Yeah. DM: Yeah. NY: No matter what you feel like. But that's it, you know, they get that picture of what you're like right then. They don't get the picture of what you're like every time you want to play music. They get the picture of what you're like at eight o'clock, and you're priming yourself to want to play music at eight o'clock, cause that's what you live for, you know. But still, days are different, you know. That's one of the things about the road, that uh, uh, that uh, makes me think about something Kurt Cobain said about when you --- He was feeling like he went out on the road, and, and he uh, he was faking it, he wasn't into it, and it was killing him. DM: Yeah, that's right NY: That's because he had to go on at eight, instead of, six, or nine-thirty, ... DM: That's a structured,... NY: ... you know, ... DM: ... grown-up kind of thing. NY: ... or maybe four a.m., for him, you know, whatever, --- or not. You know, so, that's the thing, if you don't have that uh, you know, look, writing should be night and day. Whenever you want to write, you can write. DM: Does that put a lot of pressure on your family to give you that space? NY: I got a great family. They give me all the space I need. DM: Yeah, and that, that's a little bit, --- NY: Yeah. DM: That's a demand that, that people who have a creative life have to make on their family, I guess. NY: Yeah, most of us ... DM: And in that way you're not like other people. NY: No, I think it scares a lot of creative people out having families, you know, because they get ``held up'' that way, or something. But I'm lucky, I got, uh, I got the best situation that way. DM: Yeah, yeah, well let's hear, uh, all of that pouring out, as I'm the Ocean.
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 2:38:06 EDT From: Crazed Idiot <sbart7kb@s850.mwc.edu> Subject: I'm the Ocean, from Spin article With the concert still in his ears, Young went back to his hotel room and wrote "I'm the Ocean," Mirror Ball's most glorious tune, a summation and maybe a boast. "People my age/They don't do the things I do," he sings over a crinkled riff that repeats forever. He pledges love to his wife and family, voice quavering, then contemplates the baseball strike and O.J. Simpson. "They're symptoms of social upheaval. America is really not ready for some sports hero to carve up a couple of people and for the baseball guys to not even play. The facts, they just keep piling up. And the ones that hit me hard enough end up in a song somewhere." But the song moves past facts, as he marvels at our need for entertainment, violence, and myth. Young may hate the media flow of heroes and icons, but he also recognizes his contradictory compulsion to remain one of the giants, almost poking fun at himself for it. "I'm the ocean," he ends the song chanting, "I'm the giant undertow." The only rock dinosaur ever to manifest an acutely bad conscience about it, the only avant-rocker ever to consistently tour stadiums, Young has an unerring ability to divine rock's mythical core. He embraced the '60s counterculture and '70s singer-songwriter era with Buffalo Springfield, Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young, and Harvest, then became as much of an alternative forefather as Big Star or the Velvet Underground with '70s albums like Tonight's the Night and the punk salute Rust Never Sleeps. As mainstream rock died in the '80s, he stopped bothering with rock. When alternative rock started to become mainstream, he grew interested again. Young's music can be irritating, his guitar epics overblown, his eagerness to be a cultural spokesman overbearing. But then, the ocean has never been afraid of bigness. He can also be subtle and compact--"Don't Cry No Tears," "Winterlong," "Truth Be Known"--because he's large in the only redeemable way: He contains multitudes. Where today's rockers mumble and hedge, Young is incredibly sure of himself--then changes his mind. He loves deliberate contrasts: playing the same song twice on a single album, recasting the line "let's go downtown," so doomed and fatalistic on Tonight's the Night, as a party anthem (with just a touch of the whirlpool) on Mirror Ball's "Downtown." At a time when rock is an overly familiar force in our culture, Young's honed ambiguities are one of the last enduring scraps of mystery we have left. MORE TO COME AGAIN...TOMORROW.... sleep now.....
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 95 15:38:36 GMT From: "bs@AUC" <i12bent@hum.auc.dk> Subject: BGC/ITO lyrics - thoughts on Rider, wolves and braves (LONG) Rusties: I know some of you are not interested in lyrics analysis. So don't read on :-).... For those (primarily Eurorusties (?)) who like this game (The Rust Lyrics Subculture :-)), here are some thoughts on two linked songs from Mirror Ball: Big Green Country & I'm The Ocean. Anne C. and Wolfgang have also done some thinking on these lyrics and may post their stuff later, including some good comments Anne has already sent me about my analysis. WARNING: Lyrics analysis to follow! --------------------------------------------- The rider seems to be a messenger/courier on a mission. The reference to "would he make it this time" indicates that he is doing this dangerous thing regularly, not just as a one-off. What message is he carrying? Is it of importance to anyone but himself? Is he just enjoying the danger for danger's own sake rather than "doing a job"? Certainly he is only "lone" when in the role of rider, since the "she" is clearly waiting for him at home, where he then cannot be considered "lone"... The chief is communing with the Spirit, which leads to associations with Geronimo, the last Apache (?) warlord who re-kindled the Ghost dance ritual and was told by the Spirit to wage war against the whites (a version of holy war)... The woman is praying to her God, presumably for another outcome of the confrontation... Thus, the song is showing the problematic of letting supra-human entites guide and control our lives and doings. The wolf-pack "want their money back". This is a violently contrastive image, pitting wolves as nature/wild representatives against associations of civilization/culture in the reference to "money". What sort of wolves want their money back? Perhaps the wolves of the advertising industry looking for a pay-back from their model/actor: the cancer cowboy... The reference to "barely in his prime" is a bit problematic. What is a man's prime, anyway? It is easier to pinpoint "past his prime" and "not yet in his prime" than the precise moment of "prime"... I associate the rider with a man in his early thirties, who has not yet found his path, but is experimenting with danger, turning his back on his safe home - a not yet fully individuated person. The song takes an unsuspected turn with the introduction of an "I", registering "his" feelings about the scenario we have hitherto experienced as a third person account. It is, by the way, the agency of the "I" that ties the song as such in with the ITO lyrics that feature the same registering, freely associating, dreaming "I"... The "I" is questioning, doubtful about his feelings, senses and identity: first he wonders about the rider, but then his thoughts slide towards worrying about himself. Or perhaps the slide indicates an identity, at least symbolically as identification, between the "I" and the rider... The "I" is first a blank sheet, ready for inscription (perhaps with an identity), then becomes the inscription itself: "his own name", another token for identity. But the transformation is fluid or temporary: "Sometimes... sometimes", nothing is settled: Am "I" transformed or not...? The lines from "ITO", which I have now placed after BGC, add another dimension as regards the braves, because now the "I" of ITO wonders about their vulnarability when the turn comes to them to die by the blade. There is an almost motherly concen in these thoughts by the "I"...: "Who will hold them?" In summary, the song(s) seem to be about dream images, used by a searching individual to attempt to position "him" in the world, testing various stances or roles that are more or less archetypal for a culturally "educated" person in the modern world. Some of the positions are archaic or nostalgic and may even be seen as refuges from the modern condition, much the same desire as Kevin Costner's figure in "Dances with Wolves".... The project of the "I" may ultimately be seen as a search for, desire for maturity, individuation, purpose of life.... ------------------------------- Here are the lyrics I've discussed: Big Green Country ----------------- Across the plain flew the lone grey rider Leather bag pounding on his back Above the clouds the moon was climbing higher A pack of wolves wanted their money back With folded arms the chief stood watching Painted braves slipped down the hill In his ears the spirit talking As they closed in For an easy kill At the house the door was wide open Wind blew curtains off the rod She was waiting and hoping She was praying to her god He was luckier than most men He was barely in his prime As she stood there in the doorway Her long dress flowing Would he make it this time Over the hill in the big green country That's the place where the cancer cowboy rides Pure as the driven snow before it got him Sometimes I feel like he's all right Sometimes I feel like a piece of paper Sometimes I feel like my own name Sometimes I feel different later Sometimes I feel I feel just the same ---------------------------------- (from) I'm The Ocean On the long plain See the rider in the night See the chieftain See the braves in cool moonlight Who will love them When they take another life Who will hold them When they tremble for the knife Started dreaming Saw the rider once again In the doorway Where she stood and watched for him Watched for him ------------------------------------------ bs@AUC Dept. of Languages and Intercultural Studies Aalborg University, Denmark
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 12:31:07 +0000 From: Anne.C.Henriksen@hint.no Subject: Re: BGC/ITO lyrics - thoughts on Rider, wolves and braves Thanks for a great analysis, BS@AUC. It's stands so well on its own without needing comments. As BS mentioned we've been discussing this song already...and since it's suggested I should post comments, I've tried re-editing a bit of our discussion. >The rider seems to be a messenger/courier on a mission. The reference to >"would he make it this time" indicates that he is doing this dangerous >thing regularly, not just as a one-off. What message is he carrying? Is it >of importance to anyone but himself? Is he just enjoying the danger for >danger's own sake rather than "doing a job"? Certainly he is only "lone" >when in the role of rider, since the "she" is clearly waiting for him at >home, where he then cannot be considered "lone"... The associations and the paths you choose are quite different from mine, or ones Wolfgang and I've discussed. This makes it all the more interesting. I do also recognize some thoughts which you have developed here that I've been into as well, but without emphasizing. I've also taken a look at other Rider images in NYs lyrics (e.g The Lone Red Rider of 'Misfits' is an interesting comparison). Of messages in "the leather bag", to me it has seemed likely that it foremost would contain the mentioned money (=values to pay back a dept of some unspecified kind). One other point that BS mentioned in our discussion that's surprising, is the way this Rider does nothing but ride in both ITO and BGC. The emphasis is laid on observing him and describing him to us from four very different viewpoints: the ITO-dreamer, the Braves, the Waiting Woman and in the comments in BGCs last verses. >The chief is communing with the Spirit, which leads to associations with >Geronimo, the last Apache (?) warlord who re-kindled the Ghost dance ritual >and was told by the Spirit to wage war against the whites (a version of >holy war)... The woman is praying to her God, presumably for another >outcome of the confrontation... Thus, the song is showing the problematic >of letting supra-human entites guide and control our lives and doings. Yes as far as I know, Neil has used symbolism from in Native American Warrior symbolism in several contexts throught the years. The Warriors and the Riders can be seen to have many deeper meanings in common, though the Warriors are described as choosing very destructive solutions and measures. The Chief & Braves do seem to have a vital symbolic meaning. Perhaps as representatives of existing more closely to our sources of nature, with all instinctive reactions intact. I gather we both see them as a force both observing and threatening the Rider. The 'she' has an unusually idiosyncratic religious perception -- "her" God (as Wolfgang has pointed out). She is as a whole very mysterious in her choices of reactions. Wonder who she is praying for -- I'd mostly expect it's the Rider, since she doesn't find it necessary to protect herself physically from any threats. She has obviously chosen to stay behind alone. I agree that it probably is the same "she" in BGC and ITO. Big Green Country introduces her to us with a symbol of a helplessly open door--as a person who seems non-self-centered, in full understanding of why the Rider must attempt to reach his settlement with the BGC wolves. I've wondered if the lines "He was luckier than most men, He was barely in his prime" are expressed from *her* point of view? They could well be favorable perceptions she has of the Rider. >The wolf-pack "want their money back". This is a violently contrastive >image, pitting wolves as nature/wild representatives against associations >of civilization/culture in the reference to "money". What sort of wolves >want their money back? Perhaps the wolves of the advertising industry >looking for a pay-back from their model/actor: the cancer cowboy... :-) This does gives a rather humourous mixture of cultural elements. Another idea might be that this dept may have to do with modern society's exploitation of nature. The Cancer Cowboy could be a symbol of our decaying culture, which holds its depts to the nature it has exploited. Personally I tend to see these vicious wolves as a metaphor of conflict towards the very dark sides of femininity. In our processes of individuation also these aspects must find their final settlement. >The reference to "barely in his prime" is a bit problematic. What is a >man's prime, anyway? It is easier to pinpoint "past his prime" and "not yet >in his prime" than the precise moment of "prime"... I associate the rider >with a man in his early thirties, who has not yet found his path, but is >experimenting with danger, turning his back on his safe home - a not yet >fully individuated person. "Being in one's prime" is one of the most relative expressions one might find - actually I find a touch of humour in this choice of words. Don't we all feel we are more or less in our prime, or at least, want to feel this? (Tho, when men reach their sixties they seem to start reconsidering). >The song takes an unsuspected turn with the introduction of an "I", >registering "his" feelings about the scenario we have hitherto experienced >as a third person account. It is, by the way, the agency of the "I" that >ties the song as such in with the ITO lyrics that feature the same >registering, freely associating, dreaming "I"... >The "I" is questioning, doubtful about his feelings, senses and identity: >first he wonders about the rider, but then his thoughts slide towards >worrying about himself. Or perhaps the slide indicates an identity, at >least symbolically as identification, between the "I" and the rider... >The "I" is first a blank sheet, ready for inscription (perhaps with an >identity), then becomes the inscription itself: "his own name", another >token for identity. But the transformation is fluid or temporary: >"Sometimes... sometimes", nothing is settled: Am "I" transformed or not...? I like your thoughts very much in this paragraph. My associations to the "piece of paper" were more the one-dimensional aspect about a piece of paper. But your idea has a very nice consistency with the following lines. >The lines from "ITO", which I have now placed after BGC, add another >dimension as regards the braves, because now the "I" of ITO wonders about >their vulnarability when the turn comes to them to die by the blade. There >is an almost motherly concern in these thoughts by the "I"...: "Who will >hold them?" It is obvious that the Braves hold more importance than just being an evil threat. BS also mentioned in our discussion that how the shift of viewpoint within ITO and BGC urges us to a balanced view of conflicts - a typical Neil approach. To me this idea ties the Warriors and the Rider even closer together - maybe their quests have some common factors, but represent different qualities and solutions. >In summary, the song(s) seem to be about dream images, used by a searching >individual to attempt to position "him" in the world, testing various >stances or roles that are more or less archetypal for a culturally >"educated" person in the modern world. Some of the positions are archaic or >nostalgic and may even be seen as refuges from the modern condition, much >the same desire as Kevin Costner's figure in "Dances with Wolves".... >The project of the "I" may ultimately be seen as a search for, desire for >maturity, individuation, purpose of life.... I agree that these songs can been seen this way. :-) It has been nice to read this, thanks-! anne
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 1995 13:28:33 EST From: "WOLFGANG DEIMEL" <wolfgang@mvkjp2.kjp.uni-marburg.de> Subject: RE: BGC/ITO lyrics - thoughts on Rider, wolves and braves (LONG) I'd like to add a few thoughts to the fine analysis of bs@auc. When reading the lyrics (esp. the first 3 verses), my first impression was that it is kinda movie script, with sharp cuts between the 3 settings/scenes described. But the obvious archaic or archetypal nature of the images used could also point to a dream. This is confirmed if one takes the last verse into account, the slight confusion expressed here might fit well with the state of mind one is in when just awakening, trying to find one's way from the dream world to reality. Taking a look at the "crew" of this dream or movie, I find: Rider aka He aka Cancer Cowboy She pack of wolves aka chiefs & painted braves I don't know if the wolves and the painted braves are really the same, but it would make sense since there are a lot of changing points of views to be found (another clue that it is not one and the same narrator, but rather independent scenes with different POVs). Pack of Wolves could be the braves seen thru the rider's eyes. Another scene where the POV seems to be important is "She was praying to her God". This is apparently described by someone of a different culture or people than the She. Regarding the Rider and the Wolves I second what bs@auc already has pointed out. With the great dynamic this song reveals, the next question is for the relations between these persons or parties. Rider, She, and Wolves form a triad which makes it easy to draw connections to mythological stuff. But not necessarily. I might be much easier: what if Neil sat in his hotel and fell asleep while watching a cowboy movie? After thinking and discussing a lot on this song on private basis, I see a number of different 'levels' of interpretation. I can't say that I find one of them more true or likely than any other. More than other songs, BGC is a song of relativity. It's like an universal frame where you can put in a lot of different pictures. Relativity starts with the different POVs. Apparently a lot of different perspectives have been merged together in this song. And the story gives you a lot of freedom. You can see it as a Cowboy-movie induced dream. Or, more politically, as a description of the conflict between immigrants and native Americans. Or as a Damsell-in-distress fantasy. Or, with more historical background, as the classical constellation of a hero fighting to rescue a virgin from dark forces. Or you can fold out this classical mythological theme in Jungian terms, bringing in the concepts of Anima, Great Mother, and Hero. BGC leaves a lot to the fantasy and perspectives to the listener, and I like that. But there's one thing that's still bugging me: what about the Cancer Cowboy? What has the Marlboro Man to do with Jung? ;-) Regards, Wolfgang ps: "> WARNING: Lyrics analysis to follow!" maybe we should use this kind of "explicated lyrics" warning as a header for those who don't like to read this... :-)
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